Zezo forum: Figaro 3 Polars Winches

Figaro 3 Polars Winches

Post by toxcct | 2021-05-06 | 22:15:30

Hi all,

Did anyone notice the "winch" section of the polars json from VR changed from what it used to be ?

We still have the usual "stdTimerSec", "stdRatio", "proTimerSec" and "proRatio" properties, but now, we also have 2 new objects present for all 3 type of winch usage ("tack", "gybe", "sailChange") :

Do anyone know how it affects the behavior of the boat ?
@Cvetan/zezo ?
@Michael/Hardtack ?

15 Comments

Post by zezo | 2021-05-07 | 06:59:20

Looks like there will be separate penalties for gybe, tack and sail changes, in high and low winds

The Maxi too. And the numbers are a lot worse - 600-900-1200 seconds. Which makes sense - it's a lot harder to change sails on a large boat than on a Figaro.

Post by toxcct | 2021-05-07 | 07:29:33

ah, lw==low winds and hw==high winds !

yes, that makes sense ; I just couldn't understand what they were heading to.
Well, it seems there is not much to do on my side, but you will have to put you hands under the hood of the router again ;)

Post by Hardtack | 2021-05-07 | 07:45:25

Interesting. Let#s see if the new penalty times show up in the dashboard. It won't be very easy to see because of the long update interval, and Dashboard oly displays the remaining time.

Post by DeskSailor | 2021-05-07 | 09:06:34

Has this occurred mid-record attempt giving unfair advantage to those who have gone before?

Post by toxcct | 2021-05-07 | 13:38:46

No, this is a new polar published for a yet unstarted race AFAIK

Post by DeskSailor | 2021-05-08 | 17:32:51

Thanks.

Post by BooBill | 2021-05-07 | 11:26:06

There will be only 3 or 4 sail changes the entire race, so any advantage would be insignificant.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-05-07 | 13:20:02

What wind thresholds define "low" vs "high"? And does it pro-rate the impact, or does it suddenly change if you're above or below the threshold?

They've also changed the impact of the pro winches... instead of making the change faster, it makes the speed during the change less penalized.

Post by BooBill | 2021-05-07 | 14:39:53

Let's not lose sight of, that once again, they've made changes to the game, that affect competition, without any communication whatsoever.

Thanks to toxcct for some eagle eyes.

Post by 43South | 2021-05-07 | 18:47:06

Looks to me like the 'low v high' would be applied, dependent on what sail you are using at the time of the tack/gybe.

Post by toxcct | 2021-05-07 | 19:24:16

No, these numbers are located in the "winch" part of the polars.
That means they will affect speed only when the winches are used, which means on gybe, tack or sail change only.

However, as YMSA pointed out, there is a difference between low and high winds, but we don't know where the threshold is.
That will affect the routing for sure, and Cvetan will have to implement it somehow in zezo, but I guess we will have to inspect the faces in the dashboard, and report here what we experience of the speed penalties so we can identify where the limit is between low and high wind speeds...

Post by Reves_de_gosse | 2021-05-07 | 19:38:03

It's not clear at all for me.
If you have two winds, low and high, you need only one limit between them.
But we have two, hsw: 30 and lws: 10
Strange.

Post by Reves_de_gosse | 2021-05-10 | 15:14:40

It's not clear at all for me.
If you have two winds, low and high, you need only one limit between them.
But we have two, hsw: 30 and lws: 10
Strange.

Coefficients for Odyssey :
globalSpeedRatio : 1
iceSpeedRatio : 0,3
Foil foilSpeedRatio : 1,04
twaMin : 80
twaMax : 160
twaMerge : 10
twsMin : 16
twsMax : 35
twsMerge : 5

Hull hullSpeedRatio : 1,003

Winch lws : 10 Wind
hws : 30 Low High
tackStdTimerSec : 300 600 900
tackStdRatio : 0,5 1 1
tackProTimerSec : 75 600 900
tackProRatio : 0,5 0,7 0,7
gybeStdTimerSec : 300 600 900
gybeStdRatio : 0,5 0,5 0,5
gybeProTimerSec : 75 600 900
gybeProRatio : 0,5 0,7 0,7
sailChangeStdTimerSec : 300 900 1200
sailChangeStdRatio : 0,5 0,5 0,5
sailChangeProTimerSec : 75 900 1200
sailChangeProRatio : 0,5 0,7 0

Post by Bacemoi | 2021-05-07 | 21:01:35

Hi everyone,

Are we sure that these new parameters will be used?
If yes, it seems that the advantage of pro winches will be reduced.
For example with a boat sailing at 20kts, the difference between std and pro is 0.625 NM with the current algorithm (10 kts during 225s).
If we do understand correctly, with the new algorithm, the difference will be 0.2 NM (4 kts during 180s).

Please let me know if I made a mistake in my analysis.

Post by apfrit | 2021-05-11 | 21:58:21

Hello,

it looks like former fix penalties will be added to new adaptative ones, two wind values are provided for linear interpolation to calculate penalties for any wind force.

Do yo have the same understanding ?

Are the new penalties already computed in the zezo's routing options ?

Thank you